Cityreaching Conference Call
March 16, 2006 10:00 a.m. Central time

Guest: Francis Frangipane
Topic: How Christ-Centered Unity Can End Church Division.

Early callers identified themselves by name and city. Glenn Barth facilitated the call, and noted that Jarvis Ward is in Africa with Ron Thaxton, a cityreacher from Charleston, WV. Dale Atlas was asked to lead in opening prayer.

Announcements: The City Impact Roundtable is coming up April 3-5 in Cedar Rapids, IA. Tom White, CIR Convener, called this morning to suggest that we extend the $125 early registration rate (which expired yesterday) to participants on today’s call. Callers who wish to take advantage of this offer are asked to email info@cityreaching.com today.

Glenn introduced Francis Frangipane. Over 1 million copies of his books have been sold. He is in demand worldwide. He has established an online school called “In Christ’s Image” and is a frequent guest on Christian TV. His new book is A House Divided: How Christ-Centered Unity Can End Church Division.

1. Francis, would you compare and contrast qualities in a local church which lead to unity and qualities that lead to disunity?

Frangipane: As you said in the introduction, we have a training program called In Christ’s Image. People often think that I’m focused on unity. I’m really focused on is becoming Christ-like. The more we in the church become Christ-like, unity is the result. If I want to harp on a person who annoys me, or the pastor who doesn’t seem anointed - if I become Christ-like, when I see things that are wrong, my responses are redemptive, not just critical. Jesus set the example, existing in the form of God, he did not demand or cling to his rights as God…” He saw the need; He died to redeem. That’s the core vision to me of what it means to be Christ-like. See the need, and be willing to die for it. Paul said we are to have this mind in you… We are called to that quality of life that sees the need and compels us to move in redemption to meet that need. That produces unity in the church.

The kingdom is like a bit of leaven a woman hid in the meal. It grew until the whole was leavened. As people begin to pray and carry a certain weight of redemptive life, that begins to inspire and permeate that church. Its right to work toward unity, reconciliation, and restored relationships, but the big picture is becoming Christ-like. If we can do that, unity becomes a by-product.

Glenn: I was with Ted Haggard at Christian Management Association recently. He spoke of the importance of good government in ministries. It seems that you have described the theological base. It’s not always that simple.

2. Please talk to us about specific things church leaders can do to nurture Christ-likeness in a local church.

Frangipane: We’ve been really blessed in Cedar Rapids. Our city is not so huge that you can’t reach it. When people come from large cities, they have to think of sections of a city, neighborhoods, or the different elements of a larger region which require taking each section, like the Promised Land, little by little. One of the things we learned when we came to Cedar Rapids was that we needed to have prayer among the pastors. We began with monthly meetings, the it became weekly. We really got to know each other. We worked on our friendship. When you think of unity, the mechanics, somebody may have a particular idea – an apostle or a prophet – Biblical perceptions or church traditions super-imposed upon unity of a church. But the ebb and flow of that is friendships, lives that are being lived in Christ together, enjoying each other, not just held together by doctrine. The doctrines are filled out with “I really like you, brother. Come over to my house.” Everybody loves getting together for a meal or times when people can enjoy one another.

Glenn: One of most powerful and transforming things I experienced was when I served a church in Muncie, Indiana. Friendships developed between pastors across racial and denominational lines in the city. We were playing golf together, praying together, not just showing up at events. That became the core of transformational unity.

Frangipane: I think now of guys who have moved on from Cedar Rapids, now in Indiana and Michigan. We fought the battle together, prayed together. We can still call each other. The life we enjoyed is eternal. It still works. It’s like it was just yesterday.

Glenn: It seems to me that once someone experiences that, even if they move, they take that with them and become the one who starts that kind of relationship with others.

Frangipane: It’s real. Pastors go through battles, people we love leave, and in the midst, “Lord, everyone can leave, and it’s just you and me…” It can be a dark night of the soul, just God and me. You have to do that sometimes, but we carry that vow on the other side of the crisis and when you have a real friendship, it’s like the kingdom of God when brethren dwell together in unity. Not just go to church together. It’s a safe place where it’s not unusual for a pastor to say “I have this need” when they gather to pray together, giving and getting help. The life that is in our relationship is the bond of unity. The future of the city is in the life of the pastors. (Emphasis editorial) Those pastors, as leaders, bring their churches together; bring their churches from being little franchises to being the kingdom of God, praying together. There’s something that happens to those pastors in that kingdom of God life. It is exportable, and can transform a city. Jesus said that if the miracles were done in Sodom that were done in Capernaum, Sodom would have repented. There was something about the life of Christ, that abundant life that could transform even Sodom. We need it. We’ve been isolated, cut off, for too long, too concerned about our appearance.

When Paul was on the road to Damascus, - for us it’s kind of like the Lord meets us on our journey and unmasks us,, making us real, helping us be real with our brothers and sisters. Out of that, the exhortation of Christ comes to unity.

Glenn repeated: The future of a city is in the life of the pastors. He then asked, “Have you seen where that unity has been threatened?”

Frangipane: Yes. We break through into something, and think that we’ve pretty much secured the line, but there are always counter attacks. That applies on a larger church-wide basis. There is a battle. It often happens if you are having a blessing, a break-through. How many times a church split happens, many times when a church is beginning to flow, having break throughs, then the enemy comes in and tried to sow discord and discontent. Issues that are not the real issues become issues. There is a real battle. The enemy will contest it. We have to fight to get it and fight to hold it. Jesus said “It is finished.” Then he went to hell for 3 days. We think we’re done, but there’s always another battle to fight. We have to keep eyes and heart focused. Many of the things are teaching are about the un-offendable heart of Christ that can’t be pushed too far. One mile – go two. That’s where a lot of the breakdown occurs, when people get offended. We need a heart that has such love it can forgive. We need to become overcomers in the character of Christ.

Glenn: At the Christian Management Convention, Ted Haggard told about how at one time in his ministry, he was having a meeting. A man from another church was in the board room. A blond haired woman poked her head in the room, apologized for interrupting, said she just wanted to say “hi.” This man got an impression (he said it was from the Lord) that Ted was having an affair with this woman. Ted then went to Michigan to help in a church where there was a large population of Arabs and Muslims. He got a call from his church at home, saying the man had made an accusation. He flew back to Colorado Springs to meet with his board. They asked the man if he had 2-3 witnesses to back up his accusation, as the scripture requires. Ted had come back knowing he hadn’t committed any sin. This man, a deacon from another church, said there were 2-3witnesses. He said he was praying and the Lord told him that Ted was having an affair. However, the woman who had poked her head in the room was Ted’s sister. The man was off the deep end, perhaps because he was not in fellowship with God. When you are experiencing breakthrough, the devil will attack us.

3. Is there anything else you would like to share before we go to Question & Answer?

Frangipane: Just that the new book publication, A Church United … was originally published with the title Plan to End Church Splits, republished under title “A Church United: They didn’t put on the book that it was a re-publication. We have made it available on our website at 50% off or $6. www.Frangipane.org

Question and Answer

Mark Wilcoxson: We are in Knoxville becoming a city-wide church. I’d like to hear a bit about how to impart that vision to reach our city by becoming a city-wide church? How can I be the catalyst? It’s clear that the vision is not honed yet.

Frangipane: That is a stage that will come. In the beginning, your passion for it is essential. We were praying, as 6 pastors, praying weekly. It was incredible, amazing, as 6 guys prayed together. The next week no one showed up (it was winter, cold, etc.) I was angry. My prayer sounded like the accuser of the brethren. Finally, when the Lord broke through, the presence of the Lord came, and his word came saying, “You be the one.” The vision has to come from someone who will stand in the gap. The Lord was saying it has to start with one. Help the other guys on it. There’s always a church that is doing well and another that is doing terrible. I became sort of a bottom feeder. If a pastor was having a hard time, kids going through teen years, whatever, financial problems. I looked at those needs of a pastor as an opportunity to win his heart, to be his friend. One church was struggling, pastor had been sick, losing his house with financial pressure. This pastor asked to borrow money to make a payment; we raised enough to enable him to pay off his house and car. I would take pastors to breakfast or lunch, and not just say “I know you’re having a hard time” - I would ask him to pray for me, for needy areas in my life or church. Everyone has needs. I didn’t come as a hero to save him, but come with my own need, and in that context, ask him how I could pray for him. Then the issue comes. If within that context we bond in Christ, I suggest we meet again, praying for each other in the meantime. We are to humble ourselves as one another’s servants. God lifts up the meek and lowly. Become aware of needs in churches around you. Don’t come just to get people to come to the group. You want to get the guy’s heart, no strings attached. If he never comes to pray together again, just win his heart.

Vivian Ruth Sawyer, Louisville, KY. I have enjoyed so many of your books, but my question – you will probably walk through this in Cedar Rapids. When we come together on a citywide basis with many denominations in the same room, we know jealousy and ego are issues, but we also are concerned with different definitions of sin. Some churches think some things are perfectly fine while other churches think they are wrong. Jesus was never scandalized by sin, but these are struggles we have. And it’s difficult to get brothers in Christ to join if they perceive you as collaborating with the enemy.

Frangipane: Obviously there is a right pattern of behavior, a Biblical right. I’ve had times when a Baptist brother has heard me pray and came to me later – once I prayed about church history and botched up the facts. A brother gave me a huge book with things underlined, telling me I needed to get my facts straight. He came privately with helpful information. My thing is, if you can get people praying together, even if they aren’t perfect – you have to start somewhere. Some denominations that we thought were rigid came, and just by praying together, they started getting revived. The Holy Spirit was there. No one wants to pastor a dead church. At some point they had a vision. They paid a price to get to that position, and over the years it may have become routine. We can rekindle the heart of pastors and intercessors and leaders and give them something to live for. It’s better to have someone from a background that isn’t quite right but is praying to God than someone who is standing off being critical.

Sawyer: One thing that keeps coming up is a few who want to bring together the Islamic population.
Frangipane: If you had a dialog with the Islamic population, you could create the right setting for the right relationship. That would be a great opportunity if you could pull that off, something private where you could get together. But you don’t want to mix these things.

Benjamin Anyacho, Austin, TX: We are waiting for you to come to Austin. I have this question: I’m a missionary here. I called a meeting of the pastors of the city three or four years ago,. Prior to the meeting we got responses. “We have to have an agenda.” I was bringing them together to walk together in relationship without an agenda, but some opposed that idea. What is the best model? To bring an agenda, or call them together to form an agenda, start with relationship. What is relationship between relationship and unity? Do they walk together hand in hand?

Frangipane: Some people within the body of Christ have a vision of becoming Christ-like, but their hearts track to the King – they see structure, order (as in creation, the universe, administrative gifting). When they get met by the Holy Spirit, everything is in place. It’s their contribution to the body of Christ. It’s valuable to have structure that supports vision. But we need vision to know where we are going, and structure as a container for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I think having an agenda is fine. Your agenda is that there should be relationships. We should pray together. Having an agenda is not an enemy to the future of what God wants to do. That would serve you well. Regarding Relationships: the purpose of the church is that we become Christ-like. Relationships I have in the city, even with my wife and children, I see as an opportunity to show the character of Christ, or for God to show me where I lack in Christ-likeness. I always look at the city and see men and women who are leaders in the body. When you tie all the members of the church together, it should be a picture of the body of Christ, showing various gifts.

Forrest Turpen, Pasadena, CA: I represent Christian teachers in public schools, work with them. Every city has both public and private schools. We want to serve the church in a greater way at the city level. What would you recommend to us as an organization to impact or share with pastors and cityreachers how we can best serve them? What have you found in Cedar Rapids – what wisdom could you share?

Frangipane: Pastors and churches are aware of the tremendous needs with their youth. I think you could volunteer to do anything and be met with applause. The need is so abundant in our schools. Our city youth pastors meet monthly or every other week to pray together. If you were to contact the pastors and the youth pastors and tell them what you’ve been able to do. I was with the National Prayer Committee, sitting next to a lady who had had a major battle with cancer – Kathy Branzell. She has thousands of teachers – I heard she had 19,000 teachers involved. I’m sure the Lord has given you things that are powerful that would support local pastors.

Glenn: God is doing great things when pastors pray for their schools and get volunteers to pray for their schools. It’s a big mistake for us as Christians to view others, like public schools, as enemies,. Make them your friends. I know of a school in San Bernardino where pastors met on the campus to pray every day. The school went from a 70% drop out rate to near 0%.

Dale Atlas, Boston: A number of times in a group there has been a difference of opinion re: issues, resulting in an unwillingness to go deeper in relationship or communication. They either stop meeting or stop participating. Any advice on how to help a group overcome fear?
Frangipane: Is this primarily a prayer group?
Dale: No, a pastors group meeting for cityreaching.
Frangipane: One of the realities is that pastors don’t have a lot of time. When they meet together, they are mostly aware but part of them is back at the office thinking about what they need to do. As a group, there are logistical difficulties. A number of groups will get away for two days together, scheduling two weekdays to seek God together and get to know each other. That’s a wonderful way of advancing and deepening the relationship. Another way is for two or three to get together and invite another along for some in-depth fellowship. We have morning prayer from church to church, and a noon prayer time from 12 – 1:15. We try to end on time officially, but invite pastors who wish to stay. It’s kind of like trying to make a flower open before it’s time. If you get with some, it can be threatening. If you show yourself trustworthy, they will open up with time. A lot of what you are doing as you meet together is creating an atmosphere of trust that will hopefully spread to the others.

Glenn: People tend to divide over issues, but they rarely divide over relationships.

Frangipane: More important than what’s waiting for them at the office, sometimes, is going deeper. You have to want to go deeper. I look at the hills and valleys of life. When people are in the valleys, they need to open up, and I want to be available without forcing myself, find an atmosphere of grace in my life so they can talk to me when they are ready.

Glenn: Thanks so much for taking time to be with us today, Francis. Francis will be at our City Impact Roundtable in Cedar Rapids April 3-5. The $125 rate will hold for those of you on the call if you email info@cityreaching.com

Frangipane: The training I mentioned, focused on Christ-likeness, prayer, and unity consists of six months of email audio and emails. It’s 35 years of ministry distilled by the Lord, laying a foundation of unity for the storms we face. Our next term begins April 4th. If anyone is interested, it is an on-line school. Go to website: www.Frangipane.org for information.

Glenn: We get together on a conference call like this on the third Thursday of every month. We invite you to keep the third Thursday open.

Dr. Frangipane closed the call with prayer.