Cityreaching Conference Call
October 18, 2007
Topic: The Impact of Research on Cityreaching and Community Transformation
Guest: D. Michael Lindsay

Host Phil Miglioratti welcomed early callers, who shared their names and cities. Phil opened the call with prayer.

Phil introduced the topic of the call, focusing on the role of research in cityreaching, bringing about transformation in our cities. He asked Michael Lindsay to take us through the key roles he have had, uniquely preparing him for the role God has him in now.

Lindsay: In late 90s I worked for Gallup in the area of religion & culture. I worked with state-based clients who were interested in doing surveys for their organizations and churches. While there, George and I wrote Surveying the Religious Landscape: Trends in U.S. Beliefs by D. Michael Lindsay and George Gallup Jr. (Paperback - Jan 2000) and second, The Gallup Guide: Reality Check for 21st Century Churches by George Gallup and D. Michael Lindsay (Paperback - Jun 2002) a how-to guide for doing surveys. It contains samples to be replicated. I continued to consult for Gallup, helping with national surveys on faith-based topics. I recently completed my PhD at Princeton, and published Faith in the Halls of Power: How Evangelicals Joined the American Elite by D. Michael Lindsay (Hardcover - Aug 29, 2007), studying the role of elite evangelicals, leaders in government, business and culture, regarding how faith makes a difference in their lives. I am in Washington D.C. this morning on a book tour.

Phil: I noticed some newspaper had a review of your book.
Lindsay: Yes, there was a nice review in the Wall Street Journal this morning.
Phil. That’s no small accomplishment. I’ve begun the book, and it is worthy of that notoriety. It certainly comes out of the research you have been doing. I think it will give us a template in reassessing what it means to be an evangelical in the halls of power.
Lindsay: We’ve gotten as much attention.from secular media as Christian. It’s sort of an authoritative account of how people have made a positive difference.
Phil: You’ve done it in an exemplary way. You talk about a new kind of evangelical - cosmopolitan leaders who are strictly evangelical in theology and lifestyle and yet, in my words, “live it in a non-offensive way” and are respected.
Michael: What I’ve done is try to differentiate between populist evangelicals, the kind who have rallies on the national mall, want to take back the country for Christ. That’s been an important way of organizing evangelicals, but there are a lot of folks who say that isn’t their vision; they have a more modest goal, to be authentic, reasonable and attractive. They want to bear witness and honor the Lord in how they live all week. But they also want their faith to not be an offense. One way I describe it, they want the gospel to be an offense but don’t want the embodiment of their faith to be offensive.. I think it makes a positive difference. I think there will be more in the wider society.
Phil: It’s a helpful template for us and for society to look at us in a bridging kind of way, not a great chasm. I’m sure there will be questions on that later. The focus here is about research, and frankly that whole book is the result of research, something God has gifted you at. Let us be clear. While it is important to listen to your congregation and others, every effective minister must first seek the voice of the Lord. To that end, we suggest that all churches pursue a time of extended prayer and reflection before attempting to do research.

Lindsay: A concern George and I want to flag is: it is possible to over-fixate on the means to the ultimate end, and spend too much time on market research. That’s not what we are about. We’re about deepening faith and transformed lives. To the extent research can help us do that, it’s an effective tool. The church has sort of been the last to get on board with research. I’ve spent most of my professional career helping church leaders know what to do. We want that to be the thrust, but we would never suggest you should be polling about what you believe. Use research to help in practical applications. For example, what is the best way to roll out a new ministry? Reach a new community? Research can help you do that.

Phil: There are those out there - you, Barna - who are doing research that no one ministry or church could do. Sometimes we just throw out statistics and use them. How do those of us who are not research brainiacs use this stuff?
Lindsay: Most national research firms have websites in place where you can mine a lot of data. Gallup has data online, as does Barna. A wonderful resource is www.socialexplorer.com - census data at your fingertips. It’s easy and user-friendly. Students use it all the time. It’s a helpful access to information. It’s easier than 10 years ago. We can create tables and graphs. One bit of advice: not all survey research is of equal value. Some surveys are done on the fly without careful attention; the questions are not useful, and in the process they get bad results. So you have to pay attention to the response rate. How many were in the survey? What is response rate? That affects how much we can trust the results. For example, if I attempt to call 1000 people on phone and only 500 agree to participate, that’s only a 50% response rate. You want to be in the 40-70% range. Some firms get 3% and consider that valid.
Phil: How do we find the response rate?
Michael: It’s often found in the appendix. Before start quoting statistics, you need to find the details. A good indication is a standard 3% margin of error. If you find + or – 9%, it’s probably poor.

Phil: How do they determine the margin of error?
Michael: It is the degree to which they have confidence that it applies to the general population.
Phil: That is helpful. But how do we do on-the-street research? First, how do we even begin to think about that? I’m thinking of a pastor working in the community, one neighborhood of a city. How do we decide what we want to ask or find information about?

Lindsay: Helping make decisions on change – if you want change, it is helpful to get feedback. Ask questions: What would be most useful? How would this affect the community? You might think single moms want a Friday night out with free babysitting when what they really want is a Saturday morning discussion group. Think of it as trying to hold informal conversations with people you want to serve. Use a version of a focus group. Bring together 6 – 12 people; buy them a meal or coffee and have informal conversation around the table. Throw out “Here’s something we are thinking about doing. Would it be helpful or not?” If you do want to begin a ministry to single moms, you are not using it as recruitment for the ministry, but wanting data.

Phil: Is this informally, one-on-one in your community or better structured by inviting people for that purpose? Is there a continuum?
Michael: It’s better to have plan. You want different perspectives. How can I recruit people who are different from me? Their perspective can inform what I might do. Ask questions of people you are around, but get data from people you don’t regularly interact with.
Phil: The data – where they are talking and you are just listening. But in the Gallup Guide you present eight elements of a survey. You talk about designing it, data collection, and analysis. So in my words, a small group, neighbors, you’d like to hear from them. You have specific hooks you hang it on? Comments, not just collecting individual responses. You recommend that we do it scientifically?
Michael: Have something not quite so anecdotal. You want to be confident that you have the right information. We in church need to think strategically. We were involved in a church in Princeton, and thinking about changes in the educational program. We wanted to know about venues and what they thought Christian Education should look like. We wrote out 15-20 questions. It crystallized in our minds what we were trying to get at, and helped clarify. I don’t want to focus on this, but without a guide for the conversation it wouldn’t have been as effective.

Phil: You recommend a team doing this, with a pastor or ministry leader, intentional. What kind of people are you looking for? We have some who love doing this, others who like the reports but the process seems uninteresting or we don’t know how to navigate it.
Michael: It is a lot of work. If going to do survey in community, it will take time. The Gallup Guide gives specific questions so you can replicate it. The hard part is asking questions that are not biased. But I also think that having a team in place makes a difference because you have different perspectives before you go out and do the research. Get a group together who are passionate about the ministry venture you are thinking about. What are questions we need to find out before we start this new venture?

Phil: Have you found that there is basic prize factor? Do we tend to go into this with a conclusion, a sense that we think we know what the answer is before we do research, and are surprised by what we find?
Michael: This happens all the time with a good researcher. It’s possible to write a survey to confirm what you are thinking. But that’s not what you want. You want to ask questions that folks are comfortable responding to. For example, if I ask “Don’t you think it’s your civic duty to vote in every national election?” Of course that’s my duty. But to get at whether they actually voted or not, it would be better to ask, “Were you able to vote in the last presidential language or not?” That hedging language allows respondent not to feel “I’m not a good citizen if I didn’t vote.” You especially have to do this in the faith domain, because most Americans feel it’s part of their responsibility to be spiritually active. We want to create an environment when you ask questions where they are comfortable answering the question honestly, so you get accurate information, not biased.
Phil: We need to look for accurate information, not what we want to hear.
Michael: The gospel is full of grace and truth. You can’t help people on their spiritual journey if you don’t have sense of where they are at present.’

Phil: There is an interesting dynamic in our culture: in general, culture is becoming less Judeo-Christian in morals, but there is increasing openness to faith, even to faith-based ministries. In the cityreaching movement, we hear stories all the time of communities, large and small, telling how when churches go into the community to serve, the doors of City Hall, the police, etc. fly open. Is that a fair way to talk about this? In one way, there is a decline in Christian values; in another way, open doors?

Michael: Regarding Christian values, there is loss of institutional authority of organized religion. Organized religion has lost influence. But you are exactly right to suggest there is a spiritual hunger among Americans. We are different from other nations. We have high education, and high numbers of people are spiritually curious. 80% say they want to grow spiritually. Most Americans say they want to know God. Look at Great Britain. 40% of population is Agnostic or Atheistic.

Question and Answer
Phil: *6 will un-mute your phone, and callers can ask a question of Michael.

Bill Chastain, North Texas: Michael, congratulations on your PhD. The question about surveys - this is a blessing to me, this whole reaching cities. I tried to do a survey two months ago, wrote up a few questions along guidelines, not to be threatening. The community where I went – I wanted to set up in front of a grocery store. I said I was a Christian ministry, kept it brief. But several stores said no. I asked the Lord, went online, and found a way to write a survey on the internet, to publish in the newspaper and posters for people to try to get the word out so I could get some understandings of how we might better serve the community and build the kingdom. I got a big zero.

Michael: You have to be strategic in how you reach out to people and get their participation. I’m not surprised at that response. People are so busy. If you did have ten respondents, they would be the extremes. Usually the extreme positions respond to that kind of option. You want a response from a more targeted population. Say I want to try to reach parents of teenagers. Then you go through an organization that already serves that constituency. Instead of being too forthcoming, describing it as a Christian survey, the way you can respond to it, I approached it by saying “I’m trying to find people of faith.” I’m not just looking for evangelicals. There is a public face for the survey, describing it, but the back side is what you seek. You could simply say “I am trying to do a community interest survey on faith and values” but it’s not quite so narrow and off-putting. Use more general language. Find a group to serve as an institutional host for you.

Phil: Oftentimes we wave the Christian flag, but we want to serve the community. So that recalibration can be very significant.

Timothy Conner, Newton, KS: I’m getting ready to do community assessment based on interviews. You mentioned a team. I thought it would be way too difficult to get even 2-3 together to do interviews, but a team would probably be in on it, with only 2-3 doing the actual interviews.
Michael: That’s probably right. Are you trying to do interviews in a focus context or door to door?
Timothy: One on one.
Michael: Your idea of doing it with 2-3 is good, with a team to get more opinions will make a better survey instrument. Have the team develop it on front, and a smaller number do the actual research.

George Ordway, Fresno, CA: I love the way you talk about appreciative inquiry, looking at what people are saying and let them tell you. It’s almost a discovery process that frames the response. Let them form ideas for you. University of California colleges do great statistics and data; it’s totally secular, and allows me to use them for clarification.
Michael: I also recommend using community colleges for helpful information, comparison on what you are studying, and also serve as advisors. Your experience with U.C. system is great. I use it myself. In terms of using the actual data collection process as a way of building relationships, this is what I tell my friends. You get to know these people. In I Thessalonians Paul said, We were delighted to share our lives with you … That can be part of what we do as we ask questions, give people a chance to speak from their heart. Many Americans have had terrible experiences with church. We have a very large front door. The hidden story is the back door is just as big if not bigger. People cycle in and out. Find what drives people from church, causes them to lose their zeal. Part of that discovery process can come from engaging them without giving the impression we are trying to proselytize them. We can use surveys as a form of evangelism, but most of the time that is unsuccessful. You might find later that they felt used in that process. Find what they think and believe and try to use that information.

Phil: Basically, I think you are talking about the difference - when the church had the authority in the culture, all we had to do is talk about their need for Christ. The authority has changed. Do we need to do more listening before we share the answer?
Michael: I find out more about faith when I ask colleagues to tell me what they are thinking. Not to just wait until you finish to tell you what I am thinking. When I preached to my church in Houston, I invited colleagues to come. Someone was surprised that my colleagues would come to hear me preach. I explained, I’ve tried to be intentional with colleagues. In church, we tend to listen only to people who are like us. We have created a gated community for the soul. We need to be careful, appreciative inquiry, grateful when they tell us what they really think.

Wayne Cribbs, TX: There is group, leaders of various non-profit ministries, looking at acquiring property that would allow different ministries to operate out of the same facility. One property we are looking at is in a particular school district, a solid community. I wanted to ask your ideas of going into that community and asking what their needs are.
Michael: What do you mean by solid community?
Cribbs: It’s a low income, stable community that has been around for a long time.
Michael: I would probably start by reaching out to merchants and community leaders. They are least likely to be suspicious. Go to them and ask what the needs of the community are and how you could serve those needs. An early ally would be aldermen, people on the City Council. They can open doors for other constituents. If you go door-to-door in a low income neighborhood and look different from people answering the door, it tends to create a hostile environment that works against it. Invite someone to lunch, tell them you want to learn from them, and ask for recommendations of others who could be helpful. I had to build trust and credibility among peers, so I would ask for referrals of others. It allowed me to build large network of contacts which made a successful picture of what I was dealing with.
Cribbs: The property is an elementary school no longer being used by the district. Would that make a difference?
Michael: It gives more credibility - it has been a public institution, and you want to serve the community.

Paul Grabill, State College, PA: Can I ask a macro question? I appreciate your book. I got it a week ago. It’s awesome. I went to seminary down the street from the Gallup organization. I have some angst about evangelicals in halls of power, particularly outspoken ones like Jesse Jackson and Sharpton who tend to speak for the community. You used Barna’s name. His recent survey said that in non-Christian young adults, only 3% have a positive view of evangelicals. It looks like we’re dead in the water. In the Monica moment, she cried, wanted to help her country, but fired a Wheaton grad who was trying to do the right thing. The movement in the last 20-30 years hasn’t produced fruit, and here in the community, all the initiatives we’ve taken to reach out to the community and hurting people...
Michael: I resonate with some of those thoughts. The thing that struck me is that 25% don’t like the term evangelical to describe them, but theologically they identify with it. The good news is, as I talk with secular media and colleagues, the book sort of blows up their generic impressions. Those who get on Larry King are invited because they cause controversy. That helps ratings. No one in media is necessarily looking for people who are balanced or winsome of Christ, but cosmopolitan evangelicals are doing a lot of good. One of the ways is they understand themselves as being a counter-culture that serves the common good. They try to be more giving of time and money, more authentic in life and witness, accountable, focused on needs of others. One person, a faithful Christian trying to advance humanity is Francis Carlin of the National Institutes of Health. He led five different teams that mapped the human genome, the most significant breakthrough in the last 50 years. Dr. Carlin is a great example. He said, “I couldn’t do what I do without my relationship with Christ.” That kind of scientist saying that his research is spurred by convictions surprises people. It didn’t serve just the Christian community but the entire world. Seeing more evangelicals interested in serving others, alleviate suffering and care for the poor. - that’s a growing, more winsome picture of Christ.

Phil: Rev Magazine had an article, Five things pastors can learn … Outward focus, bridge builders, convening power. How do those 3 things, lifestyle, impact the community?
Michael: There is the temptation to create a gated community of the soul. These people want to actively rub shoulders with others, engaged with deep needs. Anyone in a leadership position has power – nothing gets done by forced decision-making. It doesn’t work. It just creates discontent within the organization. Convening power is potent. There is an effort in San Antonio, making good use of property. Use convening power to bring people together to unite the community. Try to cultivate relationships with different people. Get things done for common good.

Sherry Lorentzen, Gig Harbor, WA: Please tell me the importance of research to prayer in community.
Michael: I think the Lord uses prayer in our lives to open up new ideas. Hopeful listening in prayer should be used in research. The best research is born out of our prayer lives. Whenever I work on a major project, I spend a lot of time in prayer asking God to guide my thoughts toward the work He wants me to do. Prayer is the start, the context and the finish of all research we want to take.

Phil: Michael, would you pray a closing prayer for us along the lines of what you just shared, not just for those on this call, but those involved in Cityreaching, research and community.

Michael prayed. Thank you for the work you are doing in our world today. Give us eyes to see where you are already at work, and hands to do the work. Keep us humble. We want to honor you. Guide our ministries and sphere of influence. Guide our thoughts so that in the process we would get to know you better.

Phil prayed for Michael, and then recapped:

• The book I mentioned is from Oxford: Faith in the Halls of Power.
• Remember the great article: Five Things Pastors can Learn from World Class Leaders in Rev. Magazine.
• Handbook: The Gallup Guide, from www.GroupPublishing.com takes you through steps, helps you avoid pitfalls.