Mission America City/Community Ministries
Conference Call
November 15, 2007

Host: Rev. Jarvis Ward
Guests: Darrow Miller & Bob Moffit
Authors: Discipling the Nations & If Jesus Were Mayor


Jarvis welcomed early callers who introduced themselves by name and city. He asked callers to mute their phones if possible. Phones can be un-muted to ask a question during Q & A.

Announcements:
     ► Next Call: December 20, 2007 - We’ve been having these third Thursday calls for individuals who want to collaborate in reaching their cities for Christ. If you aren’t receiving invitations to the call, email info@cityreaching.com.
     ► CIR April 14-16. 2008 in Braintree, MA (just south of Boston): Register online NOW at www.cityreaching.com
     ► LC2C Partnership Training Conf Call
     ► Redesign of www.cityreaching.com coming in January 2008 as we attempt to identify individuals in cities of 10,000 or more, connect them to one another and provide resources for the holistic gospel.

Neil Cox was asked to open the call with prayer.

Introduction of Darrow Miller and Bob Moffitt

Jarvis: I met these two gentlemen in Atlanta a couple of years ago. They have a heart for the local church, partnering and collaborating for city transformation. Bob Moffitt is the founder of Harvest Foundation and Co-founder of Disciple Nations Alliance. Darrow Miller serves as Vice-President of Food for the Hungry, and is Co-founder of Disciple the Nations Alliance. Bob Moffitt wrote If Jesus Were Mayor (How Your Local Church Can Transform Your Community). Darrow Miller is author of Discipling the Nations, (The Power of Truth to Transform Cultures). Bob, give us a little more of your background.

Bob: We are in Hawaii, suffering for Jesus. We are working! It’s a privilege and honor to be with brothers and sisters who have a passion to reach their cities. I was not always a fan of the church. My dad was a pastor. In seminary I got disenchanted with the church - her lack of incarnation, living out the faith. I became angry with the church. God told me, “That’s my bride. I gave my life for her. Until you love her, I can’t use her.” That was the mid 70s. Since then, God has given me a passion for his body. I’ve been working with local church pastors, helping them envision what Christ has called us to be, given them some tools to get started. He has given me His love for his bride, helping her become what Jesus Christ intends her to be.

Jarvis: Darrow Miller, would you tell us a little about your journey.

Darrow: Yes. One of the high points was going to Mexico City during college, seeing poverty for the first time. God broke my heart. I was studying at Denver Seminary. I met Bob there. We were involved together in the inner city of Denver. Following that, my wife and I ended up going to Labrie Fellowship in Switzerland. I would describe the second rebirth experience. I had a born-again heart but a secular mind. I needed to have a born-again mind. I came back to the states after 3 years there with the Schaeffers. One of the things I did was become part of the church in urban Denver. For the last 26 years, I’ve worked at Food for the Hungry, an international ministry, working with the poor in developing countries. For the last 10 years Bob and I have worked together in the developing world, helping he church be God’s primary instrument for transformation. That is known as Discipling Nations Alliance.

Jarvis: What is the importance of a Christian world and life view to the discipleship process?
Darrow: I think it’s absolutely fundamental. From my own experience, I first traveled with Food for the Hungry to Kenya. There is a nation that has been evangelized. 80% profess Christ; churches are filled on Sunday. Yet Kenya is corrupt, impoverished, and the AIDS epidemic is rampant. What’s going on here? Still no transformation! Something is wrong with this picture. I traveled to Haiti. In the early 1980s about a thousand organizations were working in Haiti. Over the last few years, nearly 3 billion dollars have poured into Haiti, but she is still as poor as she was years ago. So simply spending money was not bringing transformation. That brought me to ask the question, “What is the problem? I came to the conclusion that we need to do more than evangelism and church planting, spending money. The root of the problem is the lack of a Biblical world view. In Africa you have a majority of people who are Christian in sub-Saharan Africa, yet there is no transformation. I’m convinced it’s because they have an animistic world view. We want to see change in people who are fatalistic in their mind-set, victims, help them see that God wants them to be history makers. They think nothing ever changes; there’s nothing we can do about it. We want to give them and their churches a vision to be the transformation agents of their society, moving from the concept that work is a curse to work is a gift. Women are seen as inferior to men. This brings poverty. So we believe we need to see not just hearts born again but minds born again, and Christian function from a biblical mindset. That is what will bring about transformation. We’ve been discipling people in spiritual disciplines, but not at the level of culture, the level where they see the world the way God has made it.

Jarvis: We have folks from different U.S. cities. You are describing a Christian worldview discipleship process. But I’m sure you would clearly suggest that these principles ought to be working in our cities as well.
Darrow: Yes, but the principles of biblical world view need to be applied everywhere. If you are trapped in a mindset of fatalism, believing we’re victims and there’s nothing we can do about it… that mindset will keep people impoverished in the U.S. as well as overseas. There are a number of things that we articulate: a vision and a methodology of transformation. Christ is king, not just when he returns. He’s king now, of heaven and earth. He’s king of our cities. He taught us to pray. “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” That can be in Chicago as it is in heaven, in Los Angeles. Christ is king now, and his agenda is to advance his kingdom everywhere, including our cities. To do that we need to take seriously the great commission to disciple nations, to infect and impact every sector of society. In the city, how is the church engaging in health care, in law and justice, in education? This is a comprehensive discipleship. The local church is the primary agent - not Food for the Hungry, not Harvest. The church is to work incarnationally. She is to not see herself not as a building but as a people, not just the church on Sunday but the church every day of the week in every segment of society. She is to function holistically, with her own finances. How do we bring things in that the city doesn’t have? How do we focus on the assets that are already in place, and use those assets before God for the transformation of the city? These are some of the things we focus on.

Jarvis: Why should every pastor or city reacher trying to bring people together for reaching the city? Should they have your book? Bob, your title If God were Mayor is so intriguing. How did you get the idea to write that book?

Bob: My passion is the local church, to help it understand its agenda. If we believe that the agenda of the church should be the same as the agenda of Christ … It’s really a derivation of “What would Jesus do?” The church is community. In a broader context, if Jesus were the Mayor of the City, what would be his agenda? What would he change? That begins to form an agenda for us, the church. If those are the things Jesus would do, those are the things we should do. John Stott said, if you think Jesus came as a social transformer, that’s dead wrong. He came to make us social transformers. It’s not that Jesus would be Mayor, but what would be the changes he would make.

Jarvis: In that context, you lay out the principles. From your experience, what is the most effective way local churches can influence cities?

Bob: I’m going to say something that may raise eyebrows, but I’ve been dealing with this question for over two decades. I have a suspicion that the church has not understood clearly God’s game plan. Unless we understand what his role is for the church, we can move toward his agenda, but I don’t think we will score a goal unless we really understand His plan. I think His plan is not projects. I think that especially in the West, we assume that what it means to be engaged in our city is done through projects. I think we think that way because we think of the church as an institution, and instuitions do projects. We ask churches to ask, “What would the community think if your church disappeared?” I think the right question is, “How would your neighbor feel if you moved, or your colleagues at work feel if you moved to another job, or fellow students if you went to another school?” We need to represent Christ’s agenda as individuals. I think there are four reasons. In the New Testament the church was not primarily an institution but a gathering of disciples. In Starks’ book, The Rise of Christianity, he thinks individuals were doing God’s agenda in their individual lives. I think it’s not to do projects but to equip people to serve as priests in their respective worlds. Another reason is, I believe God created us to write our signature on our universe. We do that most effectively as we empower people in our churches to impact not through projects but in their neighborhood, school, workplace, and play place. If we really want to see transformation, the most effective way for churches to do it is to equip all of their members to strategically advance God’s agenda. Abolition of slavery was an example. In the movie, Amazing Grace, credit went to Wilberforce, but I don’t think he could have done what he did without an increasing number of parliamentarians who supported him . There was a revival going on at that time, a parallel. You could see Wilburforce’s project as the abolition, but it could not have happened without the growing support of individuals. Churches encouraged their people, but the people elected these parliamentarians. I think the most effective way to impact the community is to equip individual people. We don’t do that well. When you look at the number of people who are actually engaged even in projects, it’s a small percentage. Think what could happen if the whole membership were truly engaged in their respective worlds.

Jarvis: As I listen to you and Darrow, we see the need for the church to go out beyond the walls of the sanctuary. How do you do that? Change the culture, as we in LC2C are attempting to do.

Bob: I think we misunderstand what discipleship means. We disciple people in understanding the scriptures, which is a necessity and priority - personal disciplines. But we stop there, as opposed to seeing that the purpose of that discipleship is preparing people to get into their world and strategically represent God to their world. It’s not just to encourage each other. The end purpose is to change our world. Every disciple of Christ has that responsibility. Have you seen the video Transformation Hawaii? There is clip about a mentally handicapped grocery clerk, Noel. The store where he sacks groceries is his church. The pastor says his church has been transformed by this kid who witnesses of God’s love in the store. He walks up to people in the aisles and asks if he can pray for them. People who come to church as a result and find Christ see the passion of this young man representing Christ in his world.

Jarvis opened the time for callers to participate with questions for Moffitt and Miller.

Question & Answer

Scott Neuman, Flagstaff, AZ: My wife and I attended Phase 1 training for Food for the Hungry, and then you allowed me and another guy to stay in your home. We went on to spend four years in Uzbekistan. Now I’m in Flagstaff working for Coconino County Services Department, developing micro-business, but I have been asked to help coordinate something called The Micah Collaborative, helping the church (one church, many congregations) reach out and bless communities. We feel we have some similar goals in transforming our community. My question is, when I attended the Samaritan Strategy in Phoenix, you didn’t know if you could handle doing this in the U.S. You had great response overseas but little here in the U.S. Building this Micah Collaborative has been slow and frustrating. Four churches have come together, but we really need the whole church here to come together, and we aren’t seeing that. We are working with Stan Roland and Pat McCullough, looking to January, and I’m having trouble recruiting people for that. We’re running “On Earth as in Heaven” I get 2-3 people on a Wednesday lunch hour to view that together.

Bob: Bless your heart, Scott. Your question reminds me of a comment from a veteran missionary in Honduras who said, “You decided to work with the church. You couldn’t have picked a worse institution.” I said “I know that, but that’s where God has called me.” Know that God has called you to be faithful. Don’t be discouraged. By and large, especially when we first began to work, the response was slow, but there have been phenomenal breakthroughs in last decade. I believe that’s because of (1) faithfulness to the call and (2) the wind of the Holy Spirit. No matter how hard you work, unless the Spirit is working, nothing will happen. But there is an increasing awareness and moving of the Spirit. Go with those four churches; invest your time in them.

Jarvis: We haven’t mentioned your website yet, or how to get your books.
Bob: We would like to offer both books at about a 50% discount, $7 plus shipping. If you go to website, you’ll see the regular price. But if you call 602-258-1083 and tell them you heard about the discount on the cityreaching conference call, leave your name and address and we’ll make arrangements to get the books to you. The websites: www.disciplenations.org www.harvestfoundation.org Much of our training material is on those two websites. Some of it is free, some has a price. I would encourage you to find out more about discipleship and training materials, noting the application to individuals.

The DVD “On Earth as in Heaven” was designed for U.S. churches. Buy it on the website.

Darrow: I have two fundamental convictions: the church is God’s primary plan for reaching the world, and we have felt that we need to go where there is a felt need. Not all churches have sensed that need. When you find a church that does, that’s where you want to work. Then link those churches together. The root of poverty in our communities is not lack of resources. The root is lies. Satan lies. He lies to people at the level of culture. When a culture believes his lies, that brings poverty. Around the world, one of his lies is that men are superior to women. Think of rap music in our country, how it degrades women. So the root of the problem is not lack of money or resources, but lies. Truth is the foundation for a community’s development. The book Disciple the Nations is the conceptual side, and Bob’s book is the practical side. You have two tools.

Jarvis: That’s a generous offer to provide the book at 50%. By making the call today, folks, you got a Christmas treat.

Tim Svoboda, San Francisco: I’ve been living in Chennai, India with YWAM, and just moved here to San Francisco about seven weeks ago, and am trying to get my head around this diverse, expensive city. In India we started experimenting combining civic leaders with neighborhood churches. Rather than doing service projects, we thought of how to blend into structures in the city. I’m trying to bring that in San Francisco as I try to get the know the churches here. I heard the name Stan Roland. We’re trying to get together with him. Are their other organizations like John McKnight, building communities from the inside out? Is there any city that is incarnationally moving along with the police, neighborhood alliances, community alliances, seeing transformation and the gospel spread?

Ed Buonaccorsi, Santa a Rosa: I can answer that for church in the City of Santa Rosa - Hope Works. Call me at 707-543-3710 I’d love to talk to you.

John Evans, Modesto: We’ve got an organization called Advancing Vibrant Communities, and would love to share our experience with you. 209-988-5597. We’ll await your call.

Jarvis: I know we have some new people, but a number of city models and city stories are posted at www.cityreaching.com We are also partnering with Phill Butler of VisionSynergy – that’s another resource. You can get links and connections at the website, telling the stories of what’s working, like Christian Community Development Association (CCDA) and Leadership Foundations.

Marta from Fresno, CA: I have a comment. I’m so glad you mentioned that the answer is not necessarily more projects. I believe we can bring transform through the marketplace. I’ve been in public education for twenty-five years, working on worship connection with marketplace leaders, praying for them.. So many of them are in the city but not being cared for.

Bill Chastain, North Texas: If Scott is still on the line, we could talk about how we started with slow success. God has opened the door through youth, having a common website for youth to go to. That is changing the hearts of the body – where we used to be unable to talk to them at all.

Charles from Madison, MS: I am member of the laity. A significant frustration for me is that I have found clergy to be a significant impediment, looking at the laity as partners in ministry as opposed to members of a congregation that is being led pastorally, the pastor the one who will steer the congregation in their vision. How can we get the laity to understand that we are all ministers in Christ, equal with ordained clergy to make the church a living and dynamic entity? How can we help pastors not feel threatened by laity who want to get truly involved in the church?

Darrow: I think our churches in this century have been formed by a Greek paradigm. Pastors are involved in spiritual things, laity involved in worldly things. That is the way we see the church, now entering the 21st century. The church is a building, and there really is a disconnect between clergy and laity. But the biblical paradigm has freed the church to be the priesthood of believers. The pastor exists to equip the body for works of service. The church is not a building. It is the people, meeting together on Sunday, but scattering during the week into the hospitals, the factories, schools and offices. We need to change from a Gnostic paradigm to a biblical one. As long as we have a concept of the church being a building and Christianity being a Sunday thing, we won’t see transformation. But when we see the church as people, every part working on Monday, we need a shift in paradigm.

Bob: Charles, bless your heart. I hear your frustration and passion. Let me suggest: 1. Irrespective of whether your actions are frustrating to your pastor, you have a responsibility to be faithful, do it quietly. 2. Look for others in your congregation who might want to walk with you, quietly. We have a tool, The Discipline of Love, to help people hold each other accountable. Write to us. I’ll get some workbooks to you. My email is bmoffitt@harvestfoundation.org. I’ll be glad to help you with that tool.

Jarvis: I want to again thank our guests, Bob Moffitt and Darrow Miller, for their time as well as their generous offer on this call. You can call 602-258-1083 about the books, or go to the websites. I want to remind you that this call is being recorded, so you can point people to it on cityreaching.com. The transcript will be posted there. You will also find previous calls with other guests we’ve had.

Our next conf call is Dec. 20 at 10 a.m. Central time. Feel free to forward the invitation to the call when you receive it.

Carolyn O’Brien was asked to close in prayer.