Jarvis Ward welcomed early callers and asked them to mute their phones. Jan Kennedy, Norcross, GA was asked to open in prayer.

Announcements: 

- Glenn reported on the 2008 National City Impact Roundtable in Boston, MA. About 160 folks came from cities and communities around the country. Dr. Ray Bakke gave three plenary sessions on what urban ministry is all about. Transcripts will be available on cityreaching.com, but you can order DVDs of the sessions at www.egc.org for $25. Ask for Nicole Palmeira if you phone. The topic was “How to Exegete (Understand) Your City” Many went on urban tours to see how networks can serve cityreaching movements holistically.
- Next Call: May 15, 2008 (Bill Zipp, award-winning author and master business coach)
- Partnership Training & Conf Calls (post CIR)
- Redesign of www.cityreaching.com coming May 1, 2008: request city-scape/videos
- Mission America Coalition National Committee meeting-Minneapolis—Oct 7-9)

Jarvis: It is a thrill to introduce Dr. John Perkins, Founder Mendenhall Ministries, Voice of Calvary Ministries, the Christian Community Development Assn (CCDA), the John Perkins Foundation, and Honorary Co-chair of the Mission America coalition (MAC). Our brother is a major champion in the civil rights movement, racial reconciliation and justice, a mentor, a pioneer in community development. He has been used by our Lord in incredible ways, walked before us in humility, in charity, in faith and in love. A man I call my brother and my friend. We are thrilled to have Dr. John Perkins on our call.

Dr. Perkins: I’m happy to be here. This represents a lot of my dreams and hopes. When I see how God is working in cities, it’s where they have brought together some kind of coalition, and this represents a national coalition where we hear from each other and try to understand each other, this oneness in what God is doing.

Jarvis: You have influenced city reaching through but not limited to your ministries and work in the Civil Rights Movement, development, and reconciliation and justice. What do you trust your legacy might be?
Dr. Perkins: I wish what we are talking about and doing here is to see a renewal in our nation, as Lincoln said, that our nation would have a new birth of freedom that would come out of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and get rid of this black church, white, or Chinese. I wish we would not limit the gospel to our homogenous behavior. I believe God called us. I wish my legend would be reflected in what you guys are doing and CCDA is all about. We all have a ministry in the city, but I want to see CCDA always stay conscious of the poor. It’s not our bigness. Some ministries gets so successful they don’t stay anchored with the poor.

Glenn: It’s been such a privilege to have you as a Co-chair of the MAC. You lent your name to that. It’s been a joy to see the body of Christ brought together. Your friend, Noel Castellano, was at the CIR. He talked about the redevelopment of neighborhoods in Chicago. We think about the whole church … think about diversity of the church ethnically, economically, I’m not sure we make the connection with wealthy churches in the suburbs and those suffering in violent places in our cities, but it seems to me that you and CCDA have been active where the poor are oppressed. How would you see urban and suburban Christians working together as the whole body of Christ in their city?
Dr. Perkins: Wayne Gordon and others are putting out a book based on urban/suburban relationships. There are some models, some awakening. That is an issue today. We’re seeing that happen. We need to work on it much harder. I see city reachers keeping that consciousness. Your very statement - the whole church … it’s one of the keys that we really need to push down. I believe there is a readiness for that today, especially among the young people. If the church is going to keep people from 19-35 years of age, I think they want to see that. They aren’t damaged with racism and bigotry like we were. We accepted that. But there’s a whole generation of young people that want to get rid of that dichotomy. They want to see it in their lifetime. The older people wanted to see change, but it was gradualism. God holds each generation responsible for carrying the gospel to the world in that generation. We’ve got to keep pressing it. City reachers and resources are out there, but it takes a brotherhood and also the training of urban people in how to deal with that. We can’t bully people – we’ve got to love them, form good working relationships. We can’t be using our race and those things we used to do. We’ve got to show genuine brotherhood and sisterhood. When we get involved, poor, urban, prisons, it enriches lives. Get them out and let them see and taste. They got to do it – it’s not an option.

Jarvis: As you are sharing, you highlighted an area of encouragement with the younger generation. What are some other areas where you are encouraged by the body of Christ coming together in cities and communities? What are the things that concern you about the body of Christ in communities?
Dr. Perkins: I’m encouraged by this very phone call, as I listen to people coming on from all over the U.S. This is growing. I’m encouraged by the fact that it is happening, and by the biblical base that people are dealing with. We’re almost – good old business plan, good management is now adequate. We really need God in this - the supernatural. Every time we interact with people, we depend on God to do something supernaturally. I think people are open to that. With all the addiction we have – they are hard to break, and our little plan won’t do that. Newcomers will come and think that our programs by themselves will accomplish it, but we’ve got to come back and depend on the Word of God, the Spirit of God, working in lives and see them come to know Christ and fall in love with him. I am seeing some ministries, some I have worked with, more concerned about doing that well, but thinking building houses is going to do it. We need to build houses, but that won’t do it. We need to see these people begin to walk with God. We’ve got to bring discipleship back to the center of what we are doing, the forgiveness of sin, bring that back and not work so much with malice in our hearts. Not depending on the program, believing it will do the deal. We’ve got to trust Christ to work in the hearts of our people as we work with the poor, build houses, and feed the hungry. Do more in terms of believing people can develop, give more hope. I went to Germany years ago. I was impressed with what they did with the retarded – they all found some work to do. The joy that comes out of work. We’ve created too much just feeding programs, and we need to do that, but we need to affirm the dignity of people and come up with better ways to sustain these people so they can make a contribution. People feel worthless if they aren’t contributing. We need more of that, like down in Waco, the Church under the Bridge. What thrilled me is how many of them are getting jobs, not just feeding them there forever. They need discipleship.

Glenn: One of your key principles has been re-location. We’ve learned over time that people in the burbs are not going to relocate in the city, but they still want those relationships. Has there been any change on your part about the 3- Rs?
Dr. Perkins: Let me give you the history. The 3-Rs came out of the fact that when I sent young blacks to colleges, they didn’t come back. It weakened our leadership base at the home level, at the city and state level. When they get degrees, they leave here. It’s easy to get them a PhD. The problem is like Africa. So the plan was to send those leaders back to do work. You retard people if just the suburban people come in and then go home. Then we need some of those suburbia people to decide to come to live and bring that technology. We don’t need all of them – that’s called gentrification. Not every person has to go live in the community. But we need to build up the knowledge base and financial base. Suburban churches can bring resources in, share their resources. So we need that relocation, not everybody. We Americans demonize what we don’t like. We call them a Communist, a terrorist, a nigger, and kill them. We can’t demonize – that’s what people tried to do with relocation. It was cutting through racism, superiority, so they had to find ways to demonize it. But we aren’t calling everyone. We’re calling some back for a social and economic base. We’ll work with them. I have things for suburban churches to do, and they are finding joy in doing it.

Glenn: At the same time, John, we talk about our commitment to work with folks to change their neighborhoods, find jobs, and find their way out of the systems that keep people in poverty. I think we’re talking about a long-term commitment. Last year at the CIR, Reid Carpenter talked about making a 15 year covenant together. If God didn’t change things in 15 years – but they stayed together for 30 years, building relationships over time. That’s a key piece, is it not?
Dr. Perkins: Yes, we can look at kids and leaders that made a long term commitment. That’s where development takes place. We want the churches to come and work with us for a week, interns for the summer. But what thrills me is to see those who get their feet wet work for a week and see what God does in their lives. They don’t all have to stay here. But I still find young people who have been on mission, spend a summer working in a project. InterVarsity in Pasadena has a summer program. 60% are students who go into urban communities when they get out of college. They are improving education in that area. It’s because of young people who become urban missionaries and use the education assistance as their support base. We need thousands of these folks in Mississippi. to strengthen the education base in the neighborhood. I don’t discount the volunteers, who come in for 1-2 weeks. Those churches have made a long-term commitment to our community. We have built our budget and projects around their coming, and have made significant change in our neighborhoods.

Question & Answer

Jeff from Modesto, CA: Dr. Perkins, if you were starting at the beginning, what would be your first step in transformation in your city?
Dr. Perkins: I would start by moving into the community, listen to the people. You can always start a Bible study with children and as much as you can with adults. I would listen to the felt needs of the people. I would make a stronger effort now to get poor white folks involved. Poor white folks in America, especially in Mississippi, are getting a bad deal in society. No one likes them. We black folks have champions for our needs, our Jesse Jacksons, but the poor white no longer has someone to affirm his dignity in society. We need to reach out more to poor whites. Now they listen to me. They hear me talk about loving everyone, including them. They are being neglected. If I started over right now, I couldn’t do that back in 1960, but now I would give attention there. I have a ministry in West Virginia with those very poor white people. We’re coming up with names like trailer park trash so we can neglect them.

Jarvis: I apologize for the technical problem. If you aren’t asking questions and can mute your phone, please do that.

Chuck Singletary, Birmingham: This is an awkward question, but in the Barak Obama situation where his former pastor was so bombastic toward the establishment: He seems to buy into liberation theology. There was another interview where he emphasized that. Is that very prevalent in the African American community?
Dr. Perkins: It’s prevalent among educated blacks who struggled to get an education 50 years ago, went against the system and got ahead in spite of the system. They never became reconcilers in society. You can hear that in successful, hard working blacks. My uncle succeeded in life and he hated white folks with a vengeance. He had to succeed in spite of the resistance. Black men who were spit on, who had to step off the sidewalks – there are many horror stories. That’s the reality of racism. But that man was wrong. I wish he could be reconciled. We need to be more tolerant. We don’t hold white folks responsible for all the things people say. We’ve got to get to know where these people are coming from. It’s wrong. You asked for the knowledge of where it’s coming from.

Jarvis: Do you have any new books you are working on? How do you see God using you in the rest of your life?
Dr. Perkins: We’ve got one coming out this fall for CCDA on suburbia/urban relationships. I have a team working on it. I’m working on my memoirs, telling stories that will reflect some of what I have just said. I want to tell stories so people can see the struggles we went through, but tell them in a wholesome way. I’m also working on a book on leadership, going slow on that one.

Jarvis: With Dr. King’s anniversary, asking Americans primarily but also Hispanics, what are some of the challenges we are facing now with disparity between rich and poor increasing. What is the role of the church in that widening gap?
Dr. Perkins: It’s not simple prosperity theology. I think that’s widening the gap, making a few people (the pastor and the leaders) richer. I think a lot of this is behavior and lack of education, lack of knowledge of investment and saving. While we are making the money, we are spending on credit cards, so we aren’t building equity, assets. That’s where we are suffering and why the gap is getting heavier. That’s where the prisons are getting full because of robbing and selling dope. It’s economic education, not buying so much on credit, doing more saving. We are controlled by the media. The media tells us what to buy, what to eat. Unless we can increase the pay of teachers and train them better, in addition to the church. The church at least should be teaching people thrift. I think we should make appeals even with our offering, tell people to save, to invest more creatively, so they will have more to give to the church. The church has a role to play, but the church can’t do it all. Education needs to be improved. The breakdown of our family structure is the biggest one. 80% of children are being raised without a father in the home. There is stress on that mother – they don’t get enough to do much saving unless you have a father there to match the savings. The kid wants a bicycle; father gives $100, kid gives $50. That creates value. This broken family that’s already poor creates poverty in the children.

Sherry, Gig Harbor, WA: I so appreciate the wisdom that you have spoken. I work with a city group, and one of the things I find (I’m on the board) is the great need of unity, not uniformity, in churches as they come together. Would you give us counsel and wisdom on walking together in a regional council with unity?
Dr. Perkins: I hear you clearly. I think we need more to learn the felt needs of that community rather than thinking of a project. How will this benefit the local church we will work with? Maybe do evangelism together, training together, do things together than will help that church instead of a project. Do something that the church would benefit. Later we might build a house for 5 churches in this community, but it needs the ideas of the leaders – get the unity around the suffering of the people in the community. That’s why the civil rights movement stressed – we all had to sit at the back of the bus. But when I get together with city reachers, it’s about a project, and it might not benefit the local church. When we go to suburbia, that’s a different story. We want suburbia to identify with felt needs as we in the community identify it. So these coalitions have to look more at, is this meeting today going to strengthen the urban church? We need to be talking to them about what kind of evangelism, what kind of Bible study or outreach they want to have. Perhaps street meetings, bring new people into the congregation. Holistic people will come with our program. We are going through one of our most difficult times. We feel that we really need people to come down, spend a week with us, learn together with us, and since Katrina we had a major storm that devastated one part of our city. We lost a house in that. We encourage your churches to come down and work with us on an on-going basis. We see that benefiting you and us. That’s my commercial.

Gary Schwerin, Rockford, IL: I want to express my appreciation for your ministry. I haven’t had the chance to be at CCDA for some time, but want to say that you are an inspiration, carrying on for so long, Thank you for being on this call, lifting our spirits.
Dr. Perkins: Come join us at CCDA in October.

Chuck Singletary, Birmingham, AL: I remember (you and I) getting a salad together in a restaurant. It was wonderful.. I appreciate your contribution to the body of Christ so much.
Dr. Perkins: To see people like you folks carrying on is wonderful.

Jarvis: I want to remind you all that we meet every third Thursday at 11 Eastern Time. Our next call is May 15 with Bill Zipp, master business coach. Coaching has become a big thing, not just for pastors and leaders, but also for individuals. We also will introduce the new www.cityreaching.com website. The MAC National Annual Meeting will be Oct 7-9 in Minneapolis.
Glenn: It’s been a delight to be with Dr. Perkins this hour. I’m glad so many of you were able to join us to hear the inspiration he gives us. I think we would all be honored if Dr. Perkins would close this time in prayer.
Dr. Perkins: I thank the Lord for Mission America, for encouraging city reachers, bringing cities to work together. I was just in St. Louis, in Denver and other cities where these coalitions are making a difference in the lives of people, bringing unity, relieving suffering and pain, bringing young people to know you. Thank you for our founder, Paul Cedar and our relationship together. Bless all of us. Keep giving us a sense of urgency. The time is now to reach out to be the witness we need to be to this nation. In Jesus precious name and for his sake. Amen.













1. You friend Dr. Ray Bakke spoke at the National CIR, both you and Ray are pioneers of collaborative ministry in the urban context. How would you describe the
2. Why are the three R’s (relocation, redistribution and reconciliation) not outdated and irrelevant if we are to see collaborative transformation in our cities and communities?
3. Is the Body of Christ more divided and operating independent now than it was when you started?
4. What are the things that encourage you about the Body of Christ present in our urban areas? What are the things that concern you regarding the Body of Christ?
5. What would you do differently in ministry that you would counsel the next generation following you to do and not do?
6. PLEASE SUGGEST CHANGES ABOVE AND ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AND EMAIL ME BACK ASAP—I WILL MAKE ANY ADJUSTMENTS AND SEND THE FINAL AGENDA.


Next conf call—May 15, 2008—Bill Zipp, Redesign of www.cityreaching.com

Closed in Prayer