Word and Deed: What happens when Christians follow Jesus’ pattern?
Guest: Ron Sider, President, Evangelicals for Social Action

Teleconference Transcript - 6/19/08

Glenn Barth Welcomed early callers for this monthly (third Thursday of each month) call and led in prayer.

Announcements:

CIR DVDS for 2007 and 2008 are now available through Emmanuel Gospel Center. The 2007 set features keynote speaker Reid Carpenter, President of Leadership Foundations of America (35 leadership foundations promoting the whole church taking the whole gospel to the whole city) as well as numerous sessions from the CIR in El Paso. The 2008 set includes Ray Bakke, keynote speaker and other sessions. Email Nicole Palmeira at npalmeira@egc.org (617) 262-4567

Next Cityreaching Conference Call: July 17, 2008 Dennis Fuqua and Howard Boyd guests

RE: flooding in Cedar Rapids. Charles Daugherty, Executive Director of Serve the City in Cedar Rapids, IA was given an office area downtown to coordinate much of the volunteer effort. If any would be able to volunteer to help, email info@cityreaching.com to get in touch with Charles.

Glenn introduced Ron Sider, the founder of Evangelicals for Social Action, a think-tank which seeks to develop biblical solutions to social and economic problems. He is a founding board member of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment. He is also the Professor of Theology, Holistic Ministry and Public Policy at Palmer Theological Seminary in Wynnewood, Pennsylvania and a member of Mission America Coalition. He exemplifies the mission of Lausanne Movement “The whole church taking the whole gospel to the whole city, state, nation and world.”

Interview:

Glenn: Ron, would you give us a sketch of the history of Evangelicals for Social Action and how that has intersected with changes in the larger evangelical world?
Sider: ESA got started with the Chicago l973 declaration when a number of leaders came together for three days over Thanksgiving, including Carl Henry, Jim Wallis, John Perkins, Jim Wall and myself. They called us young evangelicals at that time. The objective: call the evangelical world to a deeper commitment to issues of justice, peacemaking, women. I’ve been Chair of the Board, President or Executive Director all but one year. My writing includes the l977 Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger where these issues have been intertwined, that we not repeat mistakes of the social gospel at the beginning of the century. We wanted to keep a solid biblical foundation, be more evangelical, not less. In the mid-90s ESA added a program to help local churches - Network 9:35 is now called Word and Deed Network. It is our label for programs we have for helping local congregations who want to put together word and deed. We can help in consulting, books, tools. Creation care became an important part of what we are doing. I got a call in l990 from Paul Gorman who heard I was an evangelical who cared about the environment. This led to a national religious partnership for the environment, and includes evangelicals, Catholics, and Jewish leaders. The evangelical network was put together at ESA. It is now an independent organization, moving along vigorously. Currently ESA’s ministries include Prism Magazine, a weekly E-pistle, Word and Deed Network, and then we do some substantial public policy education. Sometimes we do a special focus on something like a letter to President Bush. Let me say a word about what I see as just an astonishing change in the evangelical world in the last thirty+ years. ESA doesn’t take credit for that. We are a small player in the larger movement of God’s grace. But think of the mission of the church. 40 years ago it was almost universally agreed that evangelism was our primary purpose. If there was any money left over, then we could do social ministry. Now almost all evangelical ministries agree we are supposed to do holistic ministry. That is dramatic change. Or take concern for poor. Years ago there was an orphans choir; $2 billion is spent today. That is massive change. It’s a part of the puzzle. There is growing materialism in the Christian world, but growing concern for poor, like the World Evangelical Alliance with Micah Challenge or in Rick Warren’s concern for overcoming poverty. Or take another area – the political agenda of evangelicals. In 1987 I wrote Completely Pro Life. We needed to be involved in the poor, in racial justice, in peace making. I think that is where the evangelical center has moved. What does the Bible tell us that God cares about? The sanctity of human life, the poor, racial justice. That broader agenda, without backing off from the sanctity of life and family, has become center of the evangelical world. Finally, creation care: For years we have felt it was hard to get the attention of the evangelical world, partly for good reasons. Some environmentalists were very secular, blaming Christianity for problems, but we’ve developed a solid Biblical foundation for creation care, and evangelicals have taken the lead. Very recently there was a Southern Baptist statement on climate change. It’s been a wonderful time to be a small part of watching and helping that happen.

Glenn: You have truly been a leader in wedding together the words of Scripture with deeds
Recently, with John Perkins, Wayne Gordon, and Al Tizon you co-authored the book, Linking Arms, Linking Lives: How Urban-Suburban Partnerships can Transform Communities. The book will be released in September. Tell us about this project.
Sider: If you talked with John Perkins, combining evangelism and social action, John and Wayne Gordon would say that virtually every one of these communities would have a partner -- a church or individuals. A crucial one is Chicago. I can do it in terms of my 100-person congregation here in Philadelphia. Our church is budget is $100,000 but we started tutoring, job training and variety of things to help the relatively poor surrounding community be transformed. We’re buying a $3.5 million building, but have a 45 year old business man in the suburbs, a friend of our pastor, who has been walking alongside, providing expertise in business. That’s just one example. Every church, no matter where located, can be in partnership with the poor, seeking to bring them to Jesus and transform their circumstances.

Glenn: One man with a vision. There are these partnerships between suburban and urban churches making our city become healthier.
Sider: No question. The city and suburbs are deeply interrelated with broader transportation and economic issues. Philadelphia has many urban services like an excellent museum and zoo that suburban people use big-time, but tend not to pay for. Jobs have moved out of the city. The transportation system is not set up for poorer people in the city to get to the new jobs. There are lots of ways we need to understand that.

Glenn: Share a few of your thoughts with us on how followers of Christ can incarnate Christ’s presence through the integration of the good deeds and good news of the gospel in their daily lives and what happens when they do.
Sider: I frankly get more and more excited about what’s possible when you get whole congregations of Christians to really get it. Jesus loves the whole person, wants them to come to relationship with him and come to wholeness of life now. It’s exciting – more and more congregations are understanding and doing that. Wayne Gordon and his congregation in the Chicago story – he was a white kid from a small town in the Midwest who went to an Athletes in Action retreat, gave his life to Christ, woke up his parents and told them of his passion for the city. His parents said, “Graduate from high school first.” So he went to Wheaton, got involved in Bible study, saw a need for tutoring, and now leads a $15 – $18 million program. I’ve hired people for 20 years. I only hire good professionals, people who understand they need to know Jesus -- doctors, lawyers, -- those in the program know that people need to know Jesus, so they are looking for opportunities to share Jesus. The only way to really transform our great cities with their terrible brokenness, the only way is to have thousands of ministries like that that are leading people to Christ and then doing the economic and social stuff needed to help people live life. These people need a decent salary, need to see that structures are fair.

Glenn: Mission America has been there move this forward, to be holistic. Recently in GoodCities with Eric Swanson, we have started GoodCities Leadership Communities, i.e. Atlanta and Little Rock, helping churches move toward more holistic expressions of their faith. I just have to say we are thankful for the pioneering work you have done in this field. How can our callers find out more about Evangelicals for Social Action.
Sider: Google Evangelicals for Social Action, or esa-online.org
Glenn: it’s a valuable site.

Q & A
Glenn advised callers who want to ask a question to unmute their phone by pressing 6.

Carl Nelson, MN Evangelical Assn: You touched on it, referring to how evangelism and social action work in practice. Could you say more about that in terms of the struggle I observe churches still working through on that. Would you say that evangelical churches still have a long way to go to understand in practical, operational terms to do both evangelism and social action? They are still viewed as separate activities, with evangelism having priority. How are they intertwined?
Sider: I think on the theoretical level, theologically, we understand we are to do both, but you are right. There are lots of congregations that are not doing both. I would love to see congregations seeing hundreds come to faith in Christ and throwing their arms around them. The fact that many aren’t doing it is not that they don’t want to do it, but they don’t know how. It’s hard to get to know poor people. The book, Good News and Good Works, Theology for the Whole Gospel, combines both. It is about churches that make a difference, a tool, a “how-to” to lead your church into combining these two.
Carl: We aren’t very effective at evangelism and spiritual growth in the U.S. Does social action need to b e part of our evangelism today?
Sider: Evangelism and social action are not the same thing, but are closely related. One helps the other. I think friendship evangelism with a community that is socially broken and poor, where you are working with poverty and social brokenness issues, and have staff people who know people need more than a better job or home, are looking for opportunities to talk about Christ. That is simply more effective, and changes communities better than one that only does evangelism or only does social ministry. President Bush’s programs, while his tax cuts were poor – for the rich, but faith-based programs are grounded in understanding that social programs alone aren’t as effective. Government money can be used to do the job training; raise private dollars for evangelism. We have a new opportunity in that regard.

Monica Grassley, CA: We are involved in community development in the county, working with the local church, finding that the challenge is not having church members come in to fix the problem. I see we want to go in and give them the money and teach them to fish but not get in relationship with them.
Sider: That’s an important point. It’s entirely possible for middle-class members of church to work with a poor church, supposing they know how to solve problems. They do have skills and money that are crucial for broken communities. But it’s essential that they develop respect and realize they will get as much as they give. We talk about do’s and don’ts for urban and for suburban partners. Each side can mess things up royally.
Glenn: Sometimes it seems that suburbanites are willing to give dollars but the ongoing relationship piece is threatening..
Sider: Perkins talks about 3 R s, and one is relocation. Not everyone can or should, but some need to do so, to really walk with and develop personal relationships. I think frankly that it’s a wonderful gift to begin to know personally someone from a different background, different economic situation, but it takes effort. There are divides of culture and class. It doesn’t come easily. But it’s absolutely crucial.
Glenn: It impacts our busy schedules, takes very intentional effort for folks to make it a priority. It’s easier for suburbanites to take a 2-week mission trip for a couple of weeks and not have to do an on-going relationship.
Sider: You can almost learn the same things with a lot less cost without going to Guatemala or Africa, and go across town for a week or two, but it’s probably scarier. I say do Guatemala the first year, and then next year go across town. If we could get even a quarter of our members in a suburban congregation to really start walking with a poor person 1-2 hours a week, it would transform the person and the congregation. Most of the people who really care about the poor have had experiential encounters with poor people – lived among them or at least spent time with them.
Glenn: Isn’t that the heart of incarnational ministry?
Sider: Jesus became flesh and lived among us.
Glenn: It’s one thing to go to a far off place, but most of the time when we are incarnating Christ, it’s where we live.
Sider: I think evangelicals are beginning to understand how Christ’s incarnation is our model. We are to follow him.

Alan Doswald, Fresno, CA: We just had a meeting with pastors yesterday with Jim Overholt and Larry Dewitt. We have realized over the years that there are wealthy Christians in neighborhoods. We’re beginning to match up churches to build relationships so there can be a flow of people and ministry. We have found that people don’t get compassion until they get in the game, walk down the street and get involved in someone’s life. We’re beginning to encourage people to do prayer-care-and-share on their own street. The church has resources to fix a car or a roof, but we hope people gain compassion. It began for me when I began to pray for my neighbor. I’d like your input on that.
Sider: It sounds great. I would simply confirm from my own experience that the experiential encounter has been crucial. For the last few years of living in New Haven, finishing up a PhD. I had a landlord who worked 16 hours a day to have a reasonable life. We lived in the north part of the city. That was a crucial part of my own education. When I wrote Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, I returned from living overseas, but I learned from African Americans in the U.S., not from living abroad.

Monica Grassley, CA: We have a program called “Until it’s Gone” Are you familiar with that program?
Sider: Not with that specific program.
Monica Grassley, CA: It seems to bring middle class people together with people in poverty, but it still seems to be the rich people who think this will be the solution.
Sider: There are far too many comfortable middle class Christians who think they know how to solve the problems without getting to know the people. What I am sure about is that we have to combine, have a comprehensive approach. It’s not enough to do good job training, medical programs, etc. Individuals have to be transformed by a personal relationship with Christ. It’s not enough to do the evangelism and community development if we don’t make sure the school systems work, and there is a paying job available, including health care. The conversion is absolutely essential. But doing community development by itself is not enough, and evangelism by itself is not enough. You have to be sure the structures work and are fair.

Carlos Ortiz, NYC: My question – we communicated long ago. I’m with Concerts of Prayer Greater New York, getting ready to launch a leadership center. One of the things I am charged with is consideration to gather the various compassion agencies that exist in NYC, like rescue missions and a slew of others. Creating a larger agency like that to bring added benefits, collaborative packages in soliciting funding, we think would be advantageous. Would such a larger group allow the compassion-driven ministries and ministers who work in churches themselves and have church participation to some extent? Would that work to get a larger voice in the entire church community?
Sider: It’s often the case that we have churches that work hard but don’t cooperate with others, don’t know others who are doing things, working in parallel. A united voice can be more powerful. There are always turf battles. But I think your instinct is right. I would add that the leadership councils, like Pittsburg Leadership Foundation started, people like John Stalwart. and Reid Carpenter would give you advice on that.
Ortiz: I’ve thought about this – Staten Island and Harlem are highly evangelized. Staten Island is 78% middle class. I’d be curious; what would compassion look like when we look at a middle class family? Most of our compassion works look at poor families.
Sider: I think Jesus’ basic approach is to love the whole person. He cares about every part. The Staten Island person doesn’t have economic needs, but they have other needs – families falling apart, other needs.
Ortiz: Would you call that compassion?
Sider: Yes, I wouldn’t call it poverty. The Bible says God is concerned about people who are poor, hurt and in need.

Glenn: Any final word of advice?
Sider: I would invite you to go to the website. You can sign up for the weekly E-epistle from Word and Deed Network. That’s free, an easy sign up on the website. The other thing: I’m very hopeful, as I look around the world and see how the evangelical world has embraced combining evangelism and social action without losing the evangelism. Mainline churches are often liberal and are not becoming holistic. They don’t see much point in doing evangelism. Mainline churches are not becoming holistic the way evangelical churches are. Around the world I see this growing movement toward combining word and deed and creation. I think the next 20 years may be a fabulous time as we do evangelism and the right social ministry.
Glenn: The church has been marginalized by our culture, but this gives us opportunity to really be the servant of Christ, not worry about powerful political influences. I think we’ve realized that political influence can be a 2-edged sword. It’s important for the church to get back to serving as Jesus served.
Sider: It’s also important to not be tied to one political party, but let’s not retreat and stop doing responsible political participation. We need to be wise in being active, with honesty, in a way that reaches out to both parties, in a way that doesn’t expect utopia from politicians. Don’t expect too much. The little that politics can do well is important.

Monika Grassley was asked to lead in closing prayer.


Announce: Next conf call—July 17, 2008
Closing Prayer